about the morality of purchasing a leather couch. Not because of the cows involved, just the money. Crapples held that buying a leather couch was immoral. You can get something that functions just fine as a couch for far cheaper (even for nothing if you're not picky). My thinking was that as long as you can afford the couch, there's nothing wrong with greasing the wheels of capitalism and keeping the fine folks at R.C. Willey and Natuzzi employed. We give a certain amount to charity every month, pretty much regardless of what our other expenditures are. But, I won't give more because I chose not to buy something. Is that immoral? Is it more moral to give money away than let a business earn it?
It is an interesting question. Because at some point, I think it's obscene to spend X amount of dollars on a single item. Like, say, $800 for purse - one of my friends is into Louis Vuitton bags and regularly spends $500-$1,000 dollars on purses and bags. I would never do that. Is it immoral? I dunno. Before I throw my money away on a prestige item to sling over my shoulder I'd.. well, I'd probably just keep it in savings. But, I have no problem with someone spending a couple thousand dollars (or more) on a great trip. Is one intrinsically a more moral purchase than the other? I don't think so. I just value travel more than handbags.
It seems like that mythical obscene amount of money is always something more than what I earn or what I've saved. The grass is less green or in need of more care on the other side.
By the way, we bought these couches during a Memorial Day sale. My girls don't know we bought them yet (they'll be shocked - we've been sofa-hunting for months and they are convinced we'll never do anything more than look). This is the second set of couches we've bought since we were married. I like them and I don't feel guilty about them. Should I?
Depends on how much you spent. :)
ReplyDeleteLeather is supposed to last longer, right? Take good care of them and it'll be money well invested.
I'm of the philosophy that if you can afford it and still feel good about what you are doing to help out the needy and providing for your family, it's ok. But I like stuff!
ReplyDeleteGreat couches. We're looking at some just like those.
I can think of examples where a purchase could be immoral, and other situations where the same goods could be bought and uphold the highest morality.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, think of the costly ointment in the Mark 14. The argument is made that they should sell it and give the money to the poor. Jesus replies that it was OK to "waste" it anointing him, because they would always have the poor, and she was doing a good thing for Jesus. Same product, with differing views on the moral use of it. Not that you're buying this couch for Jesus, I'm just giving an example.
Also, I believe the Bible is pretty clear that money is not the danger, but the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10). So, as long as you're not giving reference to your purchases, again it's not immoral. The woman in Proverbs 31 is praised for the expensive finery her family is dressed in, for providing nice things for her household.
From what I know of you, you haven't snatched food out of anyone's mouth to purchase this couch, and as you say you routinely give money to charity. I can't imagine you all sitting around thinking how superior you are now that you have leather couches, and how you don't need God anymore.
So, to make a long comment short (too late!), I think that there are purchases that are immoral, but that a leather couch probably isn't one of them.
That was supposed to say "not giving reverence to your purchases..." Long day already!
ReplyDeleteShould you feel guilty? Yes. Yes you should.
ReplyDeleteActually - I don't know if I said it was actually "immoral" -- if I did, then I would proabably want to soften that position a bit on second thought. However, in general I would draw a distinction between spending a lot of money on things that are functionally superior to their cheaper counterparts (e.g., a wide screen TV, a sweet car, an iPod, quality shoes, a watch with cool functions, etc.) and spending a lot of money on things that are only expensive because they enhance our sense of vanity. I'm not going to use the word "immoral" but that sort of thing just doesn't sit perfectly well with me.
That being said - You could easily argue that a leather couch is worth every cent because it is so easy to clean and maintain. In that sense leather couches might fall into the former category. Expensive purses definitely fall into the latter.
You can take that to the bank!
... the fresh-take bank!
Well, as you know I've recently given my whole blog over to the questionable nature of spending money.
ReplyDeleteEight years ago My husband was determined that we buy a hand-made leather couch direct from a mom-and-pop shop, and we traveled to North Carolina from Indianapolis to do so. The price we got was close to wholesale for what the quality is. And I was pretty disgusted with the self-importance of the whole thing at the time. is it moral to buy a leather couch? In your case, yes. In my case, I figured out it was okay after five years, since the couch had been so reliable and excellent in its couch role. So I ask: why is getting a good deal make buying things seem more moral?
Is it moral to spend $20.00 on a linen blouse from a good brand? Is it okay because it listed at $70, is on the website for $35, and I found it locally for half that plus tax? Is it more moral because it's linen, which lasts long and is more middle class than polyester? Spending money on the right thing, and paying the right amount is a class concern. The recent discussion on fMh on class has been running in the back of my mind for a week.
You mentioned how much time you've spent in furniture research. Considering, shopping, comparing before making a purchase has a certain pleasure, a mental challenge, a game-like quality. And the purchase is the more enjoyed for that chase. Is consumer research a moral pastime?
That I'm buying because my old shirts aren't long enough to reach my fashionably low jeans? Is it okay to have the jeans if I bought them at Costco, guess my size while two children were losing patience in a cart? How awful is it, that I'm spending time and money on fashion, when I say I've given my life over to following Jesus Christ?
Mostly these questions just tie me up worse than the purchases ever could.
Your leather handbag remark reminds me that on my recent trip to New York, I stopped in a small handbag shop that carried only two or three designers I've never heard of. There was a particular bag was made of green leather, with many details, all lavished with attention and handicraft, and the entire piece balanced and visually cooperative. I sew just enough to appreciate how truly difficult it would be to design and make such a bag. The price was $800, and I hope she sells tens of them. There should be such beauty in the world.
but what I really wanted to say is:
ReplyDeleteThose are really great! Can I come sit on them?
Susan,
ReplyDelete$1,680 for both couches and delivery. They were originally around $2,100. But, I'm not going to take the $400 we saved and spend it on anything worthwhile/charitable (except my "future" - i.e. it's staying in savings), so I'm not sure at what point a higher price would be more immoral.
Gabby,
I'm with you, but I'm conflicted about it sometimes, too (I'm not saying these things are always an easy call for you). I hope you are taking it easy! I love to see you here, but I don't want you going against doctors orders, either!
Jen,
I love your take. I wish it was easier to discern which purchases are justified and which are not.
There's an great book about christian simplicity, called The Freedom of Simplicity. I love it and it's inspiring (because he connects a simple life with a Christ-centered life) but he also holds Christians to a very high, austere standard. I think we do better than some on it - we're not scrambling to get our stuff, we don't have wish lists a mile long - but, I certainly don't give up as much of my extra income as he would recommend. But, I'm not convinced that giving money away is the highest moral ground with money, either.
If we all just gave away everything but what we needed, where would be the incentive to make money (and more companies and more jobs for others)? And, is just handing money to someone more noble than creating jobs (either as a consumer or an employer)? I don't think so. Teach me to fish and all that.
Crapples,
Fresh takes all around. I think what you actually said is that is immoral to spend $2,000 on a couch. Which, hey, it might be (seeing as I spent less than that).
The main reason I went with leather is that I didn't want to be shopping for another couch (or wishing I had another set like I have been for the last 3 years or so) for a long time. Our old couches (that we bought almost 7 years ago) still look nice in style, but they've been pretty nasty with stains for about 4 years.
Johnna,
So much to think about! I don't know if getting a good deal actually makes it more moral. It seems like it kind of does, but I'm not sure why if I really examine it.
I think it's a more moral situation for a family that's struggling to save (or maybe the word I'm just looking for is better or smarter and not moral). Supporting an artist (whether it be someone who paints or sculpts or makes fabulous purses) seems more worthwhile than helping Louis Vuitton out.
How awful is it, that I'm spending time and money on fashion, when I say I've given my life over to following Jesus Christ?
I don't know. I don't think it's that awful. Maybe I'm too sucked into my own culture (and not concerned enough about the culture of God), but I feel like a schmuck when my wardrobe starts to get too outdated or ratty. I shouldn't care, but I do. I don't spend tons of money on highend stuff (and why do I feel the need to say that?), but I do feel more like me when I like my clothes.
And, if I never spent money on my clothes or hair, I'd probably spend way more time obsessing about what my appearance than if I didn't.
All very interesting stuff. Great conversation and I doubt it will change any of my spending habits at all.
I promise I'm not going against doctor's orders. They are slowly easing on my restrictions (yay!) and I fully expect to be off this modified bedrest nonsense after today's appointment. At least, mostly!
ReplyDeleteAs for the last couple of comments, my first reaction was how silly it was. But I do see a little point. However - the Lord does want us to look and feel our best. I'm pretty sure if we always went to church looking as if we lived in the gutter, but justified it by saying we give everything over to the church, we've missed the point. I think it all depends on HOW MUCH time we are spending on fashion. Do we subscribe to 30 different magazines and obsess over what Hollywood is wearing and immediately - church, family, obligations be damned - go out and buy a complete new wardrobe every couple of months? Or do we shop around, update our wardrobe, keep classics around and look our best? I think that's the point. It always irritates me when people think being righteous = flat out poverty and struggling, when that just isn't true. Most of the GA's (before they were GA's) had great careers, lots of money and lived very comfortably. Not lavishly, but comfortably. I'm sure if they had wanted leather couches, they shopped around and got the best deal and didn't think twice...
gabby, i agree with you and my hand-wringing is absurd, but the band between living in the gutter on one hand, and buying this season's complete wardrobe on the other, is a wide one indeed,. I don't have a good intuitive sense of how to negotiate it. It's a sort of a limited mental illness or aphasia, and I think it comes from messing up your presets by moving from one social class to another.
ReplyDeleteLaura, thanks for saying you feel like yucky when your warddrobe gets dated or ratty. It was good the year I mostly stopped worrying about my lack of idealism and character and just bought myself a pair of boot-leg jeans.
and Laura, go to Europe, take your family.
I think the morality of the good buy has something to do with stewardship, but I need stewardship to include some of the idiosyncratic ridiculous. God made the tapir and the bird-of-paradise; so why shouldn't I?
The hubby & I also moved social classes, but I think we went into with clear heads and objectives. We set really clear limits on ourselves, gave both of us "allowances" to be used for whatever we wanted and really only buy what we can pay for in cash - no carrying balances on our credit card. So, maybe it's fair to say that our transition, while rocky at first while working out all the kinks, ended up being good for us to navigate and figure all of it out. (Even though I can buy the more expensive bag, I still get more satisfaction at finding one on Target clearance for $3.) Maybe I was confused because in our transition, we found "our" moral compass on this issue relatively easily? That, I think, I can understand.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're right. My example left a very wide gap to navigate. I think A LOT of things in the gospel leave a wide gap to navigate. And while there is no clear ONE way for everyone right or wrong within that gap, we need to find our own personal right or wrong withing that gap. If that makes any sense at all in my pregnancy induced brain cell die-off!
Can I just say how cool it is that you have all of these long and well-thought out comments here? You have cool readers (not meaning me, I mean all of your other folks.)
ReplyDeleteI think I'll print this out, there's a lot to think about here.
A leather couch can be a very practical (last for years) kind of purchase, provided you can afford it-- and it sounds like you can. Plus, the smell of leather? YUM.
ReplyDeleteThat is so funny. I have this same problem. I sit in Costco wondering if I am a bad person for spending $20 on towels. I mean, our old towels will still get us dry, but since I inherited them from my parents 10 years ago before I was married, and they were already old when I got them...they look pretty bad. But, am I robbing the poor by spending money on pretty towels when there are people starving in the world? I don't know, but I have new towels now and I really like them.
ReplyDelete